Flarum is slow in comparison to NodeBB

[deleted]

This is something that's been on my mind for a long time, so today I decided to cave in to my inner demons and fired up a NodeBB installation on https://phenomlab.com. With NodeBB fully loaded, the response times make Flarum look like a horse and cart next to a Ferrari. Here's an example

This is https://metabullet.com running Flarum

This is https://phenomlab.com running NodeBB

My immediate observation here is the speed. NodeBB feels WAY faster than Flarum does, and these performance figures are a clear indicator that all is not well when you compare the two together. NodeBB comes with Websockets built in, plus caching, and a whole raft of plugins (I've enabled several of these to get is as close to what's on metabullet), and the difference in performance, speed, and general experience is astonishing.

However, I do love Flarum - I just wish it could be faster. For ages, I suspected that my host was causing issues, but it's not. Phenomlab is running on a cheap VPS from Hetnzer, and is half the power of Metabullet. For kicks, I moved the Phenomlab site to the same server as Metabullet and got the same experience - so, it's not my host (apologies for the amount of stick I've given IONOS over this previously).

What shocked me somewhat was that NodeBB also has a native RSS to post plugin which works flawlessly, but that's another story. NodeBB is running under (of course) NodeJS, MongoDB, and a reverse NGINX proxy.

Is there anything we can do about the speed here ? I've even stripped all extensions and it's the same, which doesn't make any sense to me at all.

010101

[deleted] I get what you're saying but, they are two very different software packages as you know. I've heard anything node.js based is faster than PHP. But, for example, WordPress will continue to power 40% of the web for a long time yet because, setting VPS hosting aside, cheap web hosts only make it easy for beginners if the software is PHP.

But, I'm sure there are ways to improve Flarum in the future to make it even faster.

I wish though that even the cheap shared hosts would find ways to make running a node.js, ruby, python, go, etc., website super easy. Instead, they focus on PHP. Maybe one day in the future...

askvortsov

[deleted] Is there anything we can do about the speed here ? I've even stripped all extensions and it's the same, which doesn't make any sense to me at all.

In the past, focus has been on the extension API. Now that we're approaching stable and a lot of that is squared away, we've gained the ability to try working on other stuff, like performance. @SychO has been working on fixing a N+1 query problem, and has also updated an extension that allows profiling and debugging performance issues. For the coming release we're also planning some updates to the tags extension that fix a performance issue there.

There's a lot that can be done with optimizing performance, and with providing tools to developers so they don't introduce issues in extensions. I'm hoping to see great improvements in the coming releases, but the first step is investigating and finding issues.

By the way, when you disabled all extensions, what kind of numbers did you get? Obviously this isn't a sustainable solution, but it'd be interesting to see how the load is distributed.

[deleted] What shocked me somewhat was that NodeBB also has a native RSS to post plugin which works flawlessly, but that's another story. NodeBB is running under (of course) NodeJS, MongoDB, and a reverse NGINX proxy.

It wouldn't be that difficult to create a 2 way fees support plugin (posting from feed AND providing a feed), but personally I don't have time to maintain it. If anyone is interested in taking this on, I'd be happy to help them through the process.

Justoverclock

wow...nodebb is definitely fastest on your site...good question, i will follow this
@[deleted] nodebb actually recognize automatically the language? that's a good feauture

[deleted]

Justoverclock nodebb actually recognize automatically the language? that's a good feauture

That's a good question - I think it does, but I'll need to check.

Justoverclock

it does because i'm italian, and i see the menu in italian 🙂

tankerkiller125

PHP boots the entire application on request, this is why it's slower than say NodeBB or some other "compiled server" forum software. Something like Swoole integration would go a long way in resolving that issue.

GreXXL

tankerkiller125 PHP boots the entire application on request, this is why it's slower than say NodeBB or some other "compiled server" forum software. Something like Swoole integration would go a long way in resolving that issue.

This is exactly what makes Flarum so tempting though. It's available to a larger audience as PHP based web hosting is the majority out there and many use other software like for example Wordpress anyways!

tankerkiller125

GreXXL I agree, I think that Flarum should remain as is. With maybe an optional extension to add Swoole for people who want it in the future.

[deleted]

GreXXL Not sure I agree with that comment. You can get a $5 VPS from Digital Ocean and have NodeBB up and running in about 10 minutes with absolutely no PHP.

010101

[deleted] If you're tech saavy, and/or have worked with a VPS host before. It might take you 10 minutes. It might take me 3 hours and at the end it doesn't work right. Haha! 🙂

GreXXL

[deleted] you might that's true. But average Joe will not be able to. In the end to be very successful you need to be "clicky clicky" - I know that at some stages is frustrating - but that's how it roles. If you are an expert yourself you might also use Discourse with ease - but most users won't be 🙂

[deleted]

010101 it's very easy these days - have a look here

[deleted]

askvortsov By the way, when you disabled all extensions, what kind of numbers did you get? Obviously this isn't a sustainable solution, but it'd be interesting to see how the load is distributed.

Just below the one second mark, which is still much slower than I'd expect.

askvortsov It wouldn't be that difficult to create a 2 way fees support plugin (posting from feed AND providing a feed), but personally I don't have time to maintain it. If anyone is interested in taking this on, I'd be happy to help them through the process.

I actively maintain a script that does this with the Flarum API 🙂

[deleted]

GreXXL If you are an expert yourself

After 30 years of IT Infrastructure support and my role as CISO, I'd say that qualifies me as an expert - it's what I do for a living 🙂

askvortsov

[deleted] Just below the one second mark, which is still much slower than I'd expect.

How does temporarily removing the custom header and font change things (if at all)?

GreXXL

[deleted] yeah I guessed - but my comment was not about you but I meant experts can set up Discourse and might find this is the best option. But Flarum in contrast can be a mass-appealing software!

[deleted]

katos

katos Are your Flarum and NodeBB installations running from the same box.

They were, but are not now - see OP

katos Your custom font and header, is this replicated over on your NodeBB instance?

Yes. See https://phenomlab.com/about-the-founder and https://metabullet.com/p/1-founder-s-journey

katos Further, would you be able to provide an output of php flarum info as I am beginning to suspect that you may also have an extension with a number of queries that might be impacting your performance also.

See my reply to askvortsov I stripped all extensions out leaving just core. Still just under 1 second for loading.

[deleted]

askvortsov How does temporarily removing the custom header and font change things (if at all)?

No. I stripped everything out. The custom header, footer, and the font I'm using (which is hosted locally btw), and it's exactly the same

katos

I'm curious re a few things:

1) Are your Flarum and NodeBB installations running from the same box.
2) Your custom font and header, is this replicated over on your NodeBB instance?
3) Do you run any form of performance metric monitoring, so we may potentially identify any slow-loading queries or such?

Further, would you be able to provide an output of php flarum info as I am beginning to suspect that you may also have an extension with a number of queries that might be impacting your performance also.

askvortsov

[deleted] Very interesting that it's loading slower than Discuss. Could you check what distribution of load time is coming from server calculations and which is coming from fetching resources?

Also, I assume that debug mode is disabled, but just wanted to make sure. That can add substantial slowdown as it need to recompile assets on every request.

010101

[deleted] I think this is also where ya’ll tech folks who do these things for a living are going to of course feel like a second slower is too slow.

And again. I get it... to a degree... A second is a long time in the modern Internet era. But, for me, if a website as nice as Flarum loads in 1 to 2 seconds, I’m thrilled!!! 😁 Sure, if it was node.js, or even mostly a language like Go, it might be faster. But, right at this moment, from a non I.T. / non dev perspective, you will never convince me that these other languages are as easy as a PHP backend, especially on shared hosting.